Re: [messengers] to support or not to support

Date: 10 Apr 2010 20:40:35 +0200
From: Julio Saravia <saravia.julio@xxxxxxxxx>


Let's all just take a deep breath and relax. the messenger hit his boiling point. I've had plenty of run-ins and let them ride with just a gesture and a cuss...nothing crazy. now...there have been times where my boiling point was met and things escalated. you can try to stay cool all the time but everyone has a breaking point. who knows how many times Zeus let drivers get away with their silliness...the limo driver just happen to be the one that broke him. it is what it is.

should we sit around and raise money for him...umm, maybe? in my opinion...nope? should we raise a glass to his silliness? hell yes?! Glad the injuries sustained by both parties weren't worse. Ride safe kids and stay cool...peace.

-julio

On Apr 10, 2010, at 13:13, "Joel Metz" <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

hmm. if you want to interpret my tenure statement as a challenge to your
own time, have it your way. nothing in my replies has done anything to
contest your right to have an opinion, however much i may disagree with it. stating things firmly, and refusing to qualify everything with "in my
opinion" does not make my point of view an absolute.

at this juncture and from the coverage i have seen, there is no evidence presented that any "blatant attack" occurred other than that by perzeus. one-sided as the posts coverage may be, its pretty much all we have to go on right now, unless theres something you know i dont. im not relying on them as the end-all-be-all of how things happened, but in the absence of proof otherwise, asserting that the incident which precipitated perzeus' reaction was "likely" a blatant attack is pure, unreliable conjecture on
your part.

someone blatantly attacks me from their car? hell yeah ill defend myself. but chasing someone down through traffic, and then proceeding to assault them and their vehicle ceases to be a defensive action, regardless of the precipitating factors - it becomes retaliatory at that point, and thats
where perzeus loses my support, period.

i dont like depending on the cops either - i consider them unreliable,
uneducated as to the law, biased, and unconcerned with my ilk, and
experience has borne this out. but IF an assault or injury occurred to
precipitate this whole thing, getting the license plate of the vehicle
involved, finding witnesses, and calling the cops is, in fact, the proper
response. much as i hate to make that call, id make it.

-joel




k, I'll concede that with my mere 9 years on the job and 36 on the
planet..you win or whatever there but i never said you don't have a right
to
an opinion either.

I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who will let any number of things go in traffic in the name of keeping it together because it happens
around here too bloody often.
However, my tolerance for BLATANT ATTACKS which it seems this likely
was(yes, jury still out on this one) is less than nothing, I personally
have
no qualms with responding in kind when I'm assaulted and the circumstances warrant it. Again, that response is really out of line if that's not the
situation(old lady doesn't see you, almost kills you...anger yes,
retaliatory attack, not so much) I've been hit intentionally as well as being attacked by drivers wielding knives, "the club"s, golf clubs etc usually just for being the guy on the bike when some complete douche feels he needs to be in front of or on top of me more than anything in his effed
up little world. people like this are real and alarmingly
numerous...calling
the cops sometimes works if you have what they think are legit witnesses
or
you get a rare one who gives a damn(or bothers to show up...) but I say
fuck
them, when they get the same treatment back with their self righteous anti cycling or just selfishness bubble (and the glass and metal one around
them)
popped, good, I love to see it happen. I've talked to people who had no
idea
i was a bike messenger who have spouted to me of thier hate for cyclists
and
share with me stories they thought would impress me about them running one off the road or pulling a hhilarious stunt on one, always told with some sickening kind of pride....boo-urns to them, let them get theirs however
it
should happen...
- Show quoted text -





On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Joel Metz <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

im offended that you think i dont realize that difference after 15+
years
working as a messenger (and moving up on nearly 40 as a cyclist real
quick
here). sheesh. ive had cars/drivers do everything from flip me off, to shoot me in the side with an air gun, to hit me and send me to hospital.
i
*know* that a bike swiping a car is VERY different from a car swiping a
bike.

what im talking about is the *reaction*. flying into a rage should not
be
considered an acceptable reaction to being sideswiped, on one side or
the
other.

and yeah, you SHOULD just stop and think "no worries, it's just my life
that driver almost took, just my life, breeaaaaathe....". yes, you
should.
maybe not so much emphasis on the "just my life" bit, but stopping and
thinking aint such a bad thing, eh?

i dont like that it does, but perzeus reaction reflects poorly on ALL of us. i dont typically buy into the whole "scofflaw cyclists make it worse for all of us" malarkey - but in road rage reactions like these - and yeah, im calling perzeus reaction what it is, road rage, regardless of what precipitated the whole incident - i do believe it does. no one on
the
car side of the equation here is walking away from this thinking he had
an
excellent point, and maybe theyll be more careful around us next time,
out
of a sense of either fear or responsibility. theyre just that much more
convinced of us being jackasses who go off half-cocked. and we keep
handing them more material.

-joel



it's a slightly different and more rationally affecting thing when a
big
hunk of metal is used against the fragile safety of a cyclist, than
when
a
cyclist offends the tough exterior(paint, mirrors) of a car.
It's not a double standard, because it's not the same thing.
i'm offended by your implication that they are the same and that maybe
we
should just stop and think, "no worries, it's just my life that driver
almost took, just my life, breeaaaaathe...."
good on him for tearing right into that car and putting that same fear
into
that fucker who probably thought that fuckin' little mosquito cyclist
would
probably never catch up to his him anyway.



On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Joel Metz <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

sorry, but i just cant agree with you there.

the instant Perseus chased the car down, got all smashy on the
windshield
and beat the crap out of the driver, he lost my support and sympathy,
REGARDLESS of what precipitated the incident.

had the situation been flipped, and perzeus has clipped the car, then
been
chased down by the driver, knocked off his bike and beaten up, you
know
what wed sll be thinking - and we would be justified in it. the
blatant
double standard being proposed here is BULLSHIT.

someone being a messenger, part of the community, is NOT a free pass
for
this kind of reaction.

-joel



I have been clipped numerous times and hit and hospitalized three
times
in
thirty five years...I fully advocate a show of support and
solidarity.
The
lone cyclist is a target for any cage jockey with a bad attitude.
Road
rage focuses on the easy target. had perzeus not had eye witnesses
mohammed would have pressed charges. And even though the charges
are
"minimal" Perzeus will still have lost wages and is susceptible to
civil
charges for the damage done. The last time I was hit was not an
accident,
the asswipe very deliberately clipped me while cursing me through a
partially open window. had my wheel not been rendered unridable I
would
certainly have tried to run him down and 'zeus his dumb ass. A show
of
solidarity is in order...my vote



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Messengers mailing list
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--
joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
        i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
                              after she got that bicycle...


_______________________________________________
Messengers mailing list
Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers




--
-john



--
joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
        i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
                              after she got that bicycle...


_______________________________________________
Messengers mailing list
Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers




--
-john

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Joel Metz <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

im offended that you think i dont realize that difference after 15+
years
working as a messenger (and moving up on nearly 40 as a cyclist real
quick
here). sheesh. ive had cars/drivers do everything from flip me off, to shoot me in the side with an air gun, to hit me and send me to hospital.
i
*know* that a bike swiping a car is VERY different from a car swiping a
bike.

what im talking about is the *reaction*. flying into a rage should not
be
considered an acceptable reaction to being sideswiped, on one side or
the
other.

and yeah, you SHOULD just stop and think "no worries, it's just my life
that driver almost took, just my life, breeaaaaathe....". yes, you
should.
maybe not so much emphasis on the "just my life" bit, but stopping and
thinking aint such a bad thing, eh?

i dont like that it does, but perzeus reaction reflects poorly on ALL of us. i dont typically buy into the whole "scofflaw cyclists make it worse for all of us" malarkey - but in road rage reactions like these - and yeah, im calling perzeus reaction what it is, road rage, regardless of what precipitated the whole incident - i do believe it does. no one on
the
car side of the equation here is walking away from this thinking he had
an
excellent point, and maybe theyll be more careful around us next time,
out
of a sense of either fear or responsibility. theyre just that much more
convinced of us being jackasses who go off half-cocked. and we keep
handing them more material.

-joel



it's a slightly different and more rationally affecting thing when a
big
hunk of metal is used against the fragile safety of a cyclist, than
when
a
cyclist offends the tough exterior(paint, mirrors) of a car.
It's not a double standard, because it's not the same thing.
i'm offended by your implication that they are the same and that maybe
we
should just stop and think, "no worries, it's just my life that driver
almost took, just my life, breeaaaaathe...."
good on him for tearing right into that car and putting that same fear
into
that fucker who probably thought that fuckin' little mosquito cyclist
would
probably never catch up to his him anyway.



On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Joel Metz <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

sorry, but i just cant agree with you there.

the instant Perseus chased the car down, got all smashy on the
windshield
and beat the crap out of the driver, he lost my support and sympathy,
REGARDLESS of what precipitated the incident.

had the situation been flipped, and perzeus has clipped the car, then
been
chased down by the driver, knocked off his bike and beaten up, you
know
what wed sll be thinking - and we would be justified in it. the
blatant
double standard being proposed here is BULLSHIT.

someone being a messenger, part of the community, is NOT a free pass
for
this kind of reaction.

-joel



I have been clipped numerous times and hit and hospitalized three
times
in
thirty five years...I fully advocate a show of support and
solidarity.
The
lone cyclist is a target for any cage jockey with a bad attitude.
Road
rage focuses on the easy target. had perzeus not had eye witnesses
mohammed would have pressed charges. And even though the charges
are
"minimal" Perzeus will still have lost wages and is susceptible to
civil
charges for the damage done. The last time I was hit was not an
accident,
the asswipe very deliberately clipped me while cursing me through a
partially open window. had my wheel not been rendered unridable I
would
certainly have tried to run him down and 'zeus his dumb ass. A show
of
solidarity is in order...my vote



_______________________________________________
Messengers mailing list
Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers



--
joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
        i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
                              after she got that bicycle...


_______________________________________________
Messengers mailing list
Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers




--
-john



--
joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
        i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
                              after she got that bicycle...


_______________________________________________
Messengers mailing list
Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers




--
-john



--
joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
         i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
                               after she got that bicycle...


_______________________________________________
Messengers mailing list
Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers