Re: [messengers] to support or not to support

Date: 10 Apr 2010 21:52:08 +0200
From: spencer lebouef <elegantmess@xxxxxxxxxxx>


Really?  A car clips someone in traffic. The person responds by assaulting their vehicle and person, and he's being lionized, in any way?  Maybe the driver was being aggressive with his vehicle, but, honestly, should this be shocking enough to provoke such a drastic response?  Erratic vehicles come with the job.  Seems like a u-lock to the mirror would be more than enough of a response.  And the messenger in question here is real young, right? Is there a chance that this was less an experienced, logical response to what is going to be a fairly common occurence during a messenger's career(sad but true), or a reaction based on an erroneous perception of how a messenger should react.  Do you think it more likely that that driver has learned a new respect for messengers from this experience?  Or is he looking for a weapon to protect himself in the future?  Do you really think that the drivers of the world will learn a new respect for cyclists, or feel justified in more aggressive initial responses in the future?  Will law enforcement be cracking down on limo drivers or messengers in the future?  Sorry, but it sounds to me like another damn rookie making messengers look bad.  Not everyone is cut out for the stresses of this job.

> From: saravia.julio@xxxxxxxxx
> To: magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:40:04 -0400e
> CC: messengers@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [messengers] to support or not to support
> 
> Let's all just take a deep breath and relax. the messenger hit his  
> boiling point. I've had plenty of run-ins and let them ride with just  
> a gesture and a cuss...nothing crazy. now...there have been times  
> where my boiling point was met and things escalated. you can try to  
> stay cool all the time but everyone has a breaking point. who knows  
> how many times Zeus let drivers get away with their silliness...the  
> limo driver just happen to be the one that broke him. it is what it is.
> 
> should we sit around and raise money for him...umm, maybe? in my  
> opinion...nope? should we raise a glass to his silliness? hell yes?!   
> Glad the injuries sustained by both parties weren't worse. Ride safe  
> kids and stay cool...peace.
> 
> -julio
> 
> On Apr 10, 2010, at 13:13, "Joel Metz" <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> > hmm. if you want to interpret my tenure statement as a challenge to  
> > your
> > own time, have it your way. nothing in my replies has done anything to
> > contest your right to have an opinion, however much i may disagree  
> > with
> > it. stating things firmly, and refusing to qualify everything with  
> > "in my
> > opinion" does not make my point of view an absolute.
> >
> > at this juncture and from the coverage i have seen, there is no  
> > evidence
> > presented that any "blatant attack" occurred other than that by  
> > perzeus.
> > one-sided as the posts coverage may be, its pretty much all we have  
> > to go
> > on right now, unless theres something you know i dont. im not  
> > relying on
> > them as the end-all-be-all of how things happened, but in the  
> > absence of
> > proof otherwise, asserting that the incident which precipitated  
> > perzeus'
> > reaction was "likely" a blatant attack is pure, unreliable  
> > conjecture on
> > your part.
> >
> > someone blatantly attacks me from their car? hell yeah ill defend  
> > myself.
> > but chasing someone down through traffic, and then proceeding to  
> > assault
> > them and their vehicle ceases to be a defensive action, regardless  
> > of the
> > precipitating factors - it becomes retaliatory at that point, and  
> > thats
> > where perzeus loses my support, period.
> >
> > i dont like depending on the cops either - i consider them unreliable,
> > uneducated as to the law, biased, and unconcerned with my ilk, and
> > experience has borne this out. but IF an assault or injury occurred to
> > precipitate this whole thing, getting the license plate of the vehicle
> > involved, finding witnesses, and calling the cops is, in fact, the  
> > proper
> > response. much as i hate to make that call, id make it.
> >
> > -joel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> k, I'll concede that with my mere 9 years on the job and 36 on the
> >> planet..you win or whatever there but i never said you don't have a  
> >> right
> >> to
> >> an opinion either.
> >>
> >> I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who will let any  
> >> number of
> >> things go in traffic in the name of keeping it together because it  
> >> happens
> >> around here too bloody often.
> >> However, my tolerance for BLATANT ATTACKS which it seems this likely
> >> was(yes, jury still out on this one) is less than nothing, I  
> >> personally
> >> have
> >> no qualms with responding in kind when I'm assaulted and the  
> >> circumstances
> >> warrant it.  Again, that response is really out of line if that's  
> >> not the
> >> situation(old lady doesn't see you, almost kills you...anger yes,
> >> retaliatory attack, not so much) I've been hit intentionally as  
> >> well as
> >> being attacked by drivers wielding knives, "the club"s, golf clubs  
> >> etc
> >> usually just for being the guy on the bike when some complete  
> >> douche feels
> >> he needs to be in front of or on top of me more than anything in  
> >> his effed
> >> up little world. people like this are real and alarmingly
> >> numerous...calling
> >> the cops sometimes works if you have what they think are legit  
> >> witnesses
> >> or
> >> you get a rare one who gives a damn(or bothers to show up...) but I  
> >> say
> >> fuck
> >> them, when they get the same treatment back with their self  
> >> righteous anti
> >> cycling or just selfishness bubble (and the glass and metal one  
> >> around
> >> them)
> >> popped, good, I love to see it happen. I've talked to people who  
> >> had no
> >> idea
> >> i was a bike messenger who have spouted to me of thier hate for  
> >> cyclists
> >> and
> >> share with me stories they thought would impress me about them  
> >> running one
> >> off the road or pulling a hhilarious stunt on one, always told with  
> >> some
> >> sickening kind of pride....boo-urns to them, let them get theirs  
> >> however
> >> it
> >> should happen...
> >> - Show quoted text -
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Joel Metz <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> im offended that you think i dont realize that difference after 15+
> >>> years
> >>> working as a messenger (and moving up on nearly 40 as a cyclist real
> >>> quick
> >>> here). sheesh. ive had cars/drivers do everything from flip me  
> >>> off, to
> >>> shoot me in the side with an air gun, to hit me and send me to  
> >>> hospital.
> >>> i
> >>> *know* that a bike swiping a car is VERY different from a car  
> >>> swiping a
> >>> bike.
> >>>
> >>> what im talking about is the *reaction*. flying into a rage should  
> >>> not
> >>> be
> >>> considered an acceptable reaction to being sideswiped, on one side  
> >>> or
> >>> the
> >>> other.
> >>>
> >>> and yeah, you SHOULD just stop and think "no worries, it's just my  
> >>> life
> >>> that driver almost took, just my life, breeaaaaathe....". yes, you
> >>> should.
> >>> maybe not so much emphasis on the "just my life" bit, but stopping  
> >>> and
> >>> thinking aint such a bad thing, eh?
> >>>
> >>> i dont like that it does, but perzeus reaction reflects poorly on  
> >>> ALL of
> >>> us. i dont typically buy into the whole "scofflaw cyclists make it  
> >>> worse
> >>> for all of us" malarkey - but in road rage reactions like these -  
> >>> and
> >>> yeah, im calling perzeus reaction what it is, road rage,  
> >>> regardless of
> >>> what precipitated the whole incident - i do believe it does. no  
> >>> one on
> >>> the
> >>> car side of the equation here is walking away from this thinking  
> >>> he had
> >>> an
> >>> excellent point, and maybe theyll be more careful around us next  
> >>> time,
> >>> out
> >>> of a sense of either fear or responsibility. theyre just that much  
> >>> more
> >>> convinced of us being jackasses who go off half-cocked. and we keep
> >>> handing them more material.
> >>>
> >>> -joel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> it's a slightly different and more rationally affecting thing  
> >>>> when a
> >>> big
> >>>> hunk of metal is used against the fragile safety of a cyclist, than
> >>> when
> >>> a
> >>>> cyclist offends the tough exterior(paint, mirrors) of a car.
> >>>> It's not a double standard, because it's not the same thing.
> >>>> i'm offended by your implication that they are the same and that  
> >>>> maybe
> >>> we
> >>>> should just stop and think, "no worries, it's just my life that  
> >>>> driver
> >>>> almost took, just my life, breeaaaaathe...."
> >>>> good on him for tearing right into that car and putting that same  
> >>>> fear
> >>>> into
> >>>> that fucker who probably thought that fuckin' little mosquito  
> >>>> cyclist
> >>>> would
> >>>> probably never catch up to his him anyway.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Joel Metz <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> sorry, but i just cant agree with you there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the instant Perseus chased the car down, got all smashy on the
> >>>>> windshield
> >>>>> and beat the crap out of the driver, he lost my support and  
> >>>>> sympathy,
> >>>>> REGARDLESS of what precipitated the incident.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> had the situation been flipped, and perzeus has clipped the car,  
> >>>>> then
> >>>>> been
> >>>>> chased down by the driver, knocked off his bike and beaten up, you
> >>> know
> >>>>> what wed sll be thinking - and we would be justified in it. the
> >>> blatant
> >>>>> double standard being proposed here is BULLSHIT.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> someone being a messenger, part of the community, is NOT a free  
> >>>>> pass
> >>> for
> >>>>> this kind of reaction.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -joel
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I have been clipped numerous times and hit and hospitalized three
> >>>>> times
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>> thirty five years...I fully advocate a show of support and
> >>> solidarity.
> >>>>> The
> >>>>>> lone cyclist is a target for any cage jockey with a bad attitude.
> >>> Road
> >>>>>> rage focuses on the easy target. had perzeus not had eye  
> >>>>>> witnesses
> >>>>>> mohammed would have pressed charges. And even though the charges
> >>> are
> >>>>>> "minimal" Perzeus will still have lost wages and is susceptible  
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>> civil
> >>>>>> charges for the damage done. The last time I was hit was not an
> >>>>> accident,
> >>>>>> the asswipe very deliberately clipped me while cursing me  
> >>>>>> through a
> >>>>>> partially open window. had my wheel not been rendered unridable I
> >>>>> would
> >>>>>> certainly have tried to run him down and 'zeus his dumb ass. A  
> >>>>>> show
> >>> of
> >>>>>> solidarity is in order...my vote
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Messengers mailing list
> >>>>>> Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>> http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
> >>>>> magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
> >>>>> ==
> >>>>>         i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
> >>>>>                               after she got that bicycle...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Messengers mailing list
> >>>>> Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> -john
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
> >>> magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
> >>> ==
> >>>         i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
> >>>                               after she got that bicycle...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Messengers mailing list
> >>> Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
> >>> http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> -john
> >>
> >> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Joel Metz <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> im offended that you think i dont realize that difference after 15+
> >>> years
> >>> working as a messenger (and moving up on nearly 40 as a cyclist real
> >>> quick
> >>> here). sheesh. ive had cars/drivers do everything from flip me  
> >>> off, to
> >>> shoot me in the side with an air gun, to hit me and send me to  
> >>> hospital.
> >>> i
> >>> *know* that a bike swiping a car is VERY different from a car  
> >>> swiping a
> >>> bike.
> >>>
> >>> what im talking about is the *reaction*. flying into a rage should  
> >>> not
> >>> be
> >>> considered an acceptable reaction to being sideswiped, on one side  
> >>> or
> >>> the
> >>> other.
> >>>
> >>> and yeah, you SHOULD just stop and think "no worries, it's just my  
> >>> life
> >>> that driver almost took, just my life, breeaaaaathe....". yes, you
> >>> should.
> >>> maybe not so much emphasis on the "just my life" bit, but stopping  
> >>> and
> >>> thinking aint such a bad thing, eh?
> >>>
> >>> i dont like that it does, but perzeus reaction reflects poorly on  
> >>> ALL of
> >>> us. i dont typically buy into the whole "scofflaw cyclists make it  
> >>> worse
> >>> for all of us" malarkey - but in road rage reactions like these -  
> >>> and
> >>> yeah, im calling perzeus reaction what it is, road rage,  
> >>> regardless of
> >>> what precipitated the whole incident - i do believe it does. no  
> >>> one on
> >>> the
> >>> car side of the equation here is walking away from this thinking  
> >>> he had
> >>> an
> >>> excellent point, and maybe theyll be more careful around us next  
> >>> time,
> >>> out
> >>> of a sense of either fear or responsibility. theyre just that much  
> >>> more
> >>> convinced of us being jackasses who go off half-cocked. and we keep
> >>> handing them more material.
> >>>
> >>> -joel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> it's a slightly different and more rationally affecting thing  
> >>>> when a
> >>> big
> >>>> hunk of metal is used against the fragile safety of a cyclist, than
> >>> when
> >>> a
> >>>> cyclist offends the tough exterior(paint, mirrors) of a car.
> >>>> It's not a double standard, because it's not the same thing.
> >>>> i'm offended by your implication that they are the same and that  
> >>>> maybe
> >>> we
> >>>> should just stop and think, "no worries, it's just my life that  
> >>>> driver
> >>>> almost took, just my life, breeaaaaathe...."
> >>>> good on him for tearing right into that car and putting that same  
> >>>> fear
> >>>> into
> >>>> that fucker who probably thought that fuckin' little mosquito  
> >>>> cyclist
> >>>> would
> >>>> probably never catch up to his him anyway.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Joel Metz <magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> sorry, but i just cant agree with you there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the instant Perseus chased the car down, got all smashy on the
> >>>>> windshield
> >>>>> and beat the crap out of the driver, he lost my support and  
> >>>>> sympathy,
> >>>>> REGARDLESS of what precipitated the incident.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> had the situation been flipped, and perzeus has clipped the car,  
> >>>>> then
> >>>>> been
> >>>>> chased down by the driver, knocked off his bike and beaten up, you
> >>> know
> >>>>> what wed sll be thinking - and we would be justified in it. the
> >>> blatant
> >>>>> double standard being proposed here is BULLSHIT.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> someone being a messenger, part of the community, is NOT a free  
> >>>>> pass
> >>> for
> >>>>> this kind of reaction.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -joel
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I have been clipped numerous times and hit and hospitalized three
> >>>>> times
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>> thirty five years...I fully advocate a show of support and
> >>> solidarity.
> >>>>> The
> >>>>>> lone cyclist is a target for any cage jockey with a bad attitude.
> >>> Road
> >>>>>> rage focuses on the easy target. had perzeus not had eye  
> >>>>>> witnesses
> >>>>>> mohammed would have pressed charges. And even though the charges
> >>> are
> >>>>>> "minimal" Perzeus will still have lost wages and is susceptible  
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>> civil
> >>>>>> charges for the damage done. The last time I was hit was not an
> >>>>> accident,
> >>>>>> the asswipe very deliberately clipped me while cursing me  
> >>>>>> through a
> >>>>>> partially open window. had my wheel not been rendered unridable I
> >>>>> would
> >>>>>> certainly have tried to run him down and 'zeus his dumb ass. A  
> >>>>>> show
> >>> of
> >>>>>> solidarity is in order...my vote
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Messengers mailing list
> >>>>>> Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>> http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
> >>>>> magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
> >>>>> ==
> >>>>>         i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
> >>>>>                               after she got that bicycle...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Messengers mailing list
> >>>>> Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> -john
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
> >>> magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
> >>> ==
> >>>         i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
> >>>                               after she got that bicycle...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Messengers mailing list
> >>> Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
> >>> http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> -john
> >>
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > joel metz : magpie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
> > magpie messenger collective   :    http://magpiemessenger.com/
> > ==
> >          i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
> >                                after she got that bicycle...
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Messengers mailing list
> > Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
> > http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers
> _______________________________________________
> Messengers mailing list
> Messengers@xxxxxxxxx
> http://ifbma.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/messengers
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1