Re: [messengers] super mess market / mall mess life / migros mess life / hyper discount mess life / hard discount soon

Date: 15 May 2014 14:43:42 -0000
From: Andy Zalan <zalandy@xxxxxxxxx>


ok, i'll bite.

- first and foremost, i think once a city wins the right to host a
championship, it is entirely up to them how to handle their books, money
and sponsorships. it's nice that people have opinions - messengers tend to
have strong ones - but this becomes a case of if you don't like how it is
done, do it yourself.

- your point about sponsors wanting the most for least is generally correct
and shouldn't be surprising to anybody. although i could argue that most
messenger events are sponsored primarily by small, grassroots companies
with direct ties to the mess scene, just in it for the love and not the
money. the cmwc is in reality a quite small, niche event that big money
companies are NOT climbing over each other to throw money at. it may be the
most important event on the messenger calendar but it probably draws less
attention than your local farmer's market. so this idea that we should hold
out for "real" money is wishful thinking. yes, in the past there have been
sponsors who forked over significant amounts of actual cash, but this is
very much the exception. my personal experience has been that even big
companies like red bull and cannondale don't want to give cash, only
product. i mean, if you have the luxury to choose, of course take the
money, but to turn away product based on principle is risking event suicide.

- caps only cost $1!? $2 with printing? if you really do have a line on $1
blank cycling caps, please let us all know, because in all my days of
having custom cycling apparel made, i have never seen anything for much
less than $10 per.

- i fully appreciate that an organizing committee wants cash and not to be
in the business of selling merchandise, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
when confronted with the opportunity to be given hundreds of free, custom
made, designed by your bro cycling caps, to do with what you like, in
exchange for basically nothing (cinelli is not demanding title sponsorship
or checkpoint sponsorship or anything), WHY ON EARTH would you turn this
away?

- this tax exemption thing you speak of is very interesting. if it is true,
amazing! wish i knew about it 16 years ago... but somehow i don't believe
that the irs is going to give any cmwc money back for the printing of event
merchandise. i bet someone like bega would know more about this.

- i don't get it. if the cost of the event is $50k, you need to raise $50k,
no? if you raise $150k you just made $100k. i admit that business meetings,
accounting and promoting are not my speciality (nor is addition and
subtraction), but i still don't follow your math.

- hating on the french... i'm giving safa a pass on this one. he was
justifiably pissed at and offended by a french guy who said some lame shit,
so he said some mean shit back. there was some truth to all of it... i
don't know what other contemptful americans you are talking about or what
stats you are referring to when you say most people love the french, but i
think you are biased in this matter. in any case, it is best not to make
generalizations.

- to say montreal has the best "french content" race shit in canada is not
saying much. who is their competition? ottawa? again, just admit you have a
french bias.

- french food: i tried the poutine. sorry, but that shit is NASTY.

- as far as leaving a financial trail and openness is concerned, i agree,
it could definitely help, but i also know from personal experience, that
keeping good track of the money for an event like this in a total
nightmare. like you said, we're just fucking bike messengers, not
accountants and promoters.

- as far as corruption, lying, cheating and embezzling, be careful about
pointing fingers. those are some serious accusations and unless you have
some real proof to back it up, you should probably just shut up. good for
you that you made money. really. everybody appreciates the donations you
made with your profits and trust me, all organizers hope to come out ahead
too. but it usually doesn't work out that way. to say after the fact "i
told you so" is a pretty big dick move. i organized twice and despite best
intentions, lost money big-time both times. and that happens more often
than not. not by design or intent or incompetence, but because the event
isn't prioritized to make money. the organizers didn't take on the
MONUMENTAL (and often thankless) task to get rich. no, they chose to make
the sacrifice of their time, energy and if necessary their own money to do
something GREAT. we should all just be thankful. and besides, if somebody
thinks that hosting a cmwc is any way to skim some easy money, they are out
of their minds. haha!

- and finally i would just suggest, that if you are going to post such
biting critique of members of the messenger community, at least have the
courtesy of taking credit for your comments with your real name, so all of
us know exactly who we are typing with here.

thank you. have a nice day. see you in mexico very soon!

andy zalan



On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 10:01 PM, listening quitely <
listeningquitely@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hello All, I've tried to stay out of this....Here's me 2 bits, (but you
> guys fighting is getting tiring)
>
>  1)  Any sponsor wants the most for least. (as do all business, that is
> businesses by nature) That in mind, they account their investment like
> this- whats goes in (from sponsor) must pay out at ruffly investment times
> 75% or better, (you do the math, you spent all them long days in
> school-right) So A Mess Race Events is seen by them as a fad event, worth
> only small investment, that compounded by event officials (believing
> themselves Holier than thou) that are eager, have good intentions but ZERO
> to Little:  Accountancy, Promotion and Big Businesses experience and with
> disregard or lack of skills with Business Meetings and cold calls in
> general.
> Here's Another way to look at it this...
> Hello All, I've tried to stay out of this....Here's me 2 bits, (but you
> guys fighting is getting tiring)
>
>  1)  Any sponsor wants the most for least. (as do all business, that is
> businesses by nature) That in mind, they account their investment like
> this- whats goes in (from sponsor) must pay out at ruffly investment times
> 75% or better, (you do the math, you spent all them long days in
> school-right) So A Mess Race Events is seen by them as a fad event, worth
> only small investment, that compounded by event officials (believing
> themselves Holier than thou) that are eager, have good intentions but ZERO
> to Little:  Accountancy, Promotion and Big Businesses experience and with
> disregard or lack of skills with Business Meetings and cold calls in
> general.
> Here's Another way to look at it this...
> Cost of event 50,000$
> You will need to bring in 150,000$ to pay all you bills, Don't Believe me
> , try running an event.
> ***So Your Event cost of all goods and services needs to be about 20% to
> 30% of take in (income) or you will lose money. Don't Do Like Toronto and
> Tokyo...they didn't listen to me...o-well...
> Caps only cost about 1 dollar ca. to make with shipping (orders less than
> 1000 units), add another dollar to have some volunteers screen print event
> shit on them. O ya, Maybe their is some couriers reading this-YOU have
> Friends and work contacts that manufacturer, design and print hats and
> other gear... use your heads (so i don't have to start fucking swearing)
>  And if you don't know, almost all first world countries have a full tax
> exemption (credit) for advertising , that means its free to produce free to
> distribute, By definition it has no end user cost, its cost are factored
> into daily business, and are a full right off, no cost to anyone...despite
> what your lead to believe. Do  the following or fail....USE  a" Certified
> Accountant"  in good standing or your fucked, not a courier clingon. (shit
> that sticks)
> ***Quick math*** I you give me 500 caps: I cant lease a venue or pay fees
> to suppliers. Try running a business that only takes caps and refuses cash,
> see what happens.
>
>
> 2) The French contempt Thing, Please stop bitching! (seems to come from
> the Americans mostly- just saying)
>  I and Most others love the french, So what if they don't show up on mass
> for meetings, so what they don't get a race, so what ... when they show up
> in force, they will be on the other side, and someone else will be bitched
> at, that's stupid humans for ya.
> **** NOTE **** Everyone knows The Quebeckers the Montrealers HAVE the Best
> Race Shit happening anyway if your looking for french content. (bars open
> till 3am and or 6am and later)  To the haters, Feel Free to avoid the
> french , I will gladly keep the french girls to myself. NO PROB. Montreal
> has a great group of folks, and some good racing.
>
> O YA their food is better than yours TOO! (say again THEIR FRENCH FOOD is
> better)
>
> 3) Independents is STILL KEY to all things... (lose that , and your
> fucked) your work , your play, your race, things will get more fucked the
> more you add stupid to it.
>  If you need a comity to plan shit, you'll have PROBLEMS, do it
> yourselves. (ever try dating 10 people at once, its like that)
> ***Take Individual Ownership of your shit (event-life-work)
>  You will end with a wining event or your fault, no fucking blame
> elsewhere.
> If your community wants to enjoy the event with you: they will, be real
> though, most people want to emulate a courier but they don't want all the
> shit that goes with it, they want to look in the window but still want to
> go home to their bed at night with clean hands (and no bed bugs)
>  SO events are geared to us with invites and acceptance of them, keep that
> in mind before you bitch about sponsors, there is a place in courier racing
> for sponsors.
>
>
> History proves again and again that humans don't and cant work shit out
> together, (or they get tired of the shit and move on) so do your shit your
> way, if the world wants and likes it: they will come....if not, ya know for
> next time...don't fuck up.
> As far as the selling of the "CMWC" name if that's true, It is another of
> the most DOUCHE (that would be the far reaches of your private parts
> getting cleaned with a 2500psi power washer) moves yet by the board and
> it's incompetent members, it's obviously time for new faces there or
> complete dissolution, well since the name is sold there is nothing left of
> it anyway, so it is fare Territory to rebuild from scratch and call it what
> ever you like..(may i suggest renaming it "Pencil Dick only Tack Douches"
> Or "Cant figure how to fix my bike so I'll get one with ZERO abilities")
>  You new people can feel completely comfortable with dissociating all
> cyclist and spectators without thought or regret or any insight to the
> past... also it will have proven my points above.  Its no Big waste of
> twenty five years, it was crap built on the fucking NORBA and UCI garbage
> anyway. race bodies that have ZERO to DO with couriers and city cores. Not
> to mention all the real work that went into it. Oorah
>
> 4) If comity and community is running the show ...SHOW us the money trail,
> OPEN ALL Financial records for all events. I know that 1000 eyes on a
> budget can and will find flaws , cheats, outright theft of funding if that
> exists?  O that's right Toronto just magically lost all their documents
> related to the Race and funding of the event...no funny business there EH?
> ever here of a database, you should all be familiar, you all use one
> everyday at work.
> As far as Money from events or donations ...it is open to interpretation
> by governance body what the final amount should and or will be donated with
> explicit regard to amount, as far a law goes it is only 2% by law in USA,
> and only between 2% to 4% in Canada enforceable by very limited laws. So if
> you want to be a thief that's the clearest way to get involved. Legalized
> thievery. So if an individual wants to pay out 2% and pay the rest to his
> or her self and or buddies that is an accepted practice of all business
> including business interactions with all levels of government. GET USED TO
> IT (stop bitching) or get your self in government and make the changes. Or
> things will stays the same...as they are now.
> ****  YOUR SHEEP OR YOU DEFINE YOUR ENVIRONMENT, choose.
>
>
> I have said these things before, others have said same, year after year
> same fight.
>
> Get your gear made at home, local, for that matter build copamies to
> service the couriers...
>   On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:55:52 PM, listening quitely <
> listeningquitely@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>     On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:46:02 PM, listening quitely <
> listeningquitely@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Hello All, I've tried to stay out of this....Here's me 2 bits, (but you
> guys fighting is getting tiring)
>
>  1)  Any sponsor wants the most for least. (as do all business, that is
> businesses by nature) That in mind, they account their investment like
> this- whats goes in (from sponsor) must pay out at ruffly investment times
> 75% or better, (you do the math, you spent all them long days in
> school-right) So A Mess Race Events is seen by them as a fad event, worth
> only small investment, that compounded by event officials (believing
> themselves Holier than thou) that are eager, have good intentions but ZERO
> to Little:  Accountancy, Promotion and Big Businesses experience and with
> disregard or lack of skills with Business Meetings and cold calls in
> general.
> Here's Another way to look at it this...
> Cost of event 50,000$
> You will need to bring in 150,000$ to pay all you bills, Don't Believe me
> , try running an event.
> ***So Your Event cost of all goods and services needs to be about 20% to
> 30% of take in (income) or you will lose money. Don't Do Like Toronto and
> Tokyo...they didn't listen to me...o-well...
> Caps only cost about 1 dollar ca. to make with shipping (orders less than
> 1000 units), add another dollar to have some volunteers screen print event
> shit on them. O ya, Maybe their is some couriers reading this-YOU have
> Friends and work contacts that manufacturer, design and print hats and
> other gear... use your heads (so i don't have to start fucking swearing)
>  And if you don't know, almost all first world countries have a full tax
> exemption (credit) for advertising , that means its free to produce free to
> distribute, By definition it has no end user cost, its cost are factored
> into daily business, and are a full right off, no cost to anyone...despite
> what your lead to believe.
>  Do  the following or fail....USE  a" Certified Accountant"  in good
> standing or your fucked, not a courier clingon. (shit that sticks)
>  ***Quick math*** You give me 500 caps: I cant lease a venue or pay fees
> to suppliers.
> Try running a business that only takes caps and refuses cash, see what
> happens.
> I will say again caps are paid fully throughout the supply chain and have
> no financials cost to: owner, producer, manufacturer, shipper, dealer. they
> get a full tax reimbursement for these items. So CAPS equal nothing. for
> those not understanding CAPS have ZERO value and add Zero value to your
> event, Instead the sponsor should be allowed after cash payment-fee's, to
> sell their wears and gear, simple. Don't be a gimp, don't just take because
> you think its free. That ends in diluting everyone involved. There is an
> old saying "Sucker Born Every Minute"
>
> 2) The French contempt Thing, Please stop bitching! (seems to come from
> the Americans mostly- just saying)
>  I and Most others love the french, So what if they don't show up on mass
> for meetings, so what they don't get a race, so what ... when they show up
> in force, they will be on the other side, and someone else will be bitched
> at, that's stupid humans for ya.
> **** NOTE **** Everyone knows The Quebeckers the Montrealers HAVE the Best
> Race Shit happening anyway if your looking for french content. (bars open
> till 3am and or 6am and later and REAL bike lanes like in EUROPA)  To the
> haters, Feel Free to avoid the french , I will gladly keep the french girls
> to myself. NO PROB.
>  Montreal has a great group of folks, and some good racing.
> O YA their food is better than yours TOO! (say again THEIR FRENCH FOOD is
> better)
>
> 3) Independents is STILL KEY to all things... (lose that , and your
> fucked) your work , your play, your race, things will get more fucked the
> more you add stupid to it.
>  If you need a comity to plan shit, you'll have PROBLEMS, do it
> yourselves. (ever try dating 10 people at once, its like that)
> ***Take Individual Ownership of your shit (event-life-work)
>  You will end with a wining event or your fault, no fucking blame
> elsewhere.
> If your community wants to enjoy the event with you: they will, be real
> though, most people want to emulate a courier but they don't want all the
> shit that goes with it, they want to look in the window but still want to
> go home to their bed at night with clean hands (and no bed bugs)
>  SO events are geared to us with invites and acceptance of them, keep that
> in mind before you bitch about "real sponsors", there is a place in courier
> racing for sponsors. (even cheap ass ones)
>
> History proves again and again that humans don't and cant work shit out
> together, (or they get tired of the shit and move on) so do your shit your
> way, if the world wants and likes it: they will come....if not, ya know for
> next time...don't fuck up.
> As far as the selling of the "CMWC" name if that's true, It is another of
> the most DOUCHE (that would be the far reaches of your private parts
> getting cleaned with a 2500psi power washer) moves yet by the board and
> it's incompetent members, it's obviously time for new faces there or
> complete dissolution, well since the name is sold there is nothing left of
> it anyway, so it is fare Territory to rebuild from scratch and call it what
> ever you like..(may i suggest renaming it "Pencil Dick only Tack Douches"
> Or "Cant figure how to fix my bike so I'll get one with ZERO abilities"
> LMAO-sorry, you know who you are) Hey fixxie where you gonna be after one
> of my 1200kms rides over three days. See ya clinging to a mud patty at the
> side of the road.
>  You new people can feel completely comfortable with dissociating all
> cyclist, sponsors and spectators  without thought or regret or any insight
> to the past... also it will have proven my points above.  Its no Big waste
> of twenty five years, it was crap built on the fucking NORBA and UCI
> garbage anyway. race bodies that have ZERO to DO with couriers and city
> cores. Not to mention all the real work that went into it. *Oorah*
>
> 4) If comity and community is running the show ...SHOW us the money trail,
> OPEN ALL Financial records for all events. I know that 1000 eyes on a
> budget can and will find flaws, ways to save, cheats and outright theft of
> funding if that exists?  O that's right Toronto just magically lost all
> their documents related to the Race and funding of the event...no funny
> business there EH? ever here of a database, you should all be familiar, you
> all use one everyday at work.
> As far as Money from events or donations ...it is open to interpretation
> by governance body what the final amount should and or will be donated with
> explicit regard to amount, as far a law goes it is only 2% by law in USA,
> and only between 2% to 4% in Canada enforceable by very limited laws. So if
> you want to be a thief that's the clearest way to get involved in Legalized
> thievery. So if an individual wants to pay out 2% and pay the rest (98%) to
> his or her self and or buddies that is an accepted practice of all business
> including business interactions with all levels of government. GET USED TO
> IT (stop bitching) or get your self in government and make the changes. Or
> things will stays the same...as they are now.
> ****  YOU ARE SHEEP OR YOU DEFINE YOUR ENVIRONMENT,
> choose.
>
> I have said these things before, others have said same, year after year
> same fight.
>
> Get your gear made at home, local, for that matter build companies to
> service the couriers and communities.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>