Re: [messengers] super mess market / mall mess life / migros mess life / hyper discount mess life / hard discount soon

Date: 15 May 2014 18:17:32 -0000
From: Jesse Lee Mcgarr <coredeliveries@xxxxxxxxx>


That's a capital M on Montreal and you obviously haven't tried real poutine ya worm 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 15, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Andy Zalan <zalandy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> ok, i'll bite.
> 
> - first and foremost, i think once a city wins the right to host a
> championship, it is entirely up to them how to handle their books, money
> and sponsorships. it's nice that people have opinions - messengers tend to
> have strong ones - but this becomes a case of if you don't like how it is
> done, do it yourself.
> 
> - your point about sponsors wanting the most for least is generally correct
> and shouldn't be surprising to anybody. although i could argue that most
> messenger events are sponsored primarily by small, grassroots companies
> with direct ties to the mess scene, just in it for the love and not the
> money. the cmwc is in reality a quite small, niche event that big money
> companies are NOT climbing over each other to throw money at. it may be the
> most important event on the messenger calendar but it probably draws less
> attention than your local farmer's market. so this idea that we should hold
> out for "real" money is wishful thinking. yes, in the past there have been
> sponsors who forked over significant amounts of actual cash, but this is
> very much the exception. my personal experience has been that even big
> companies like red bull and cannondale don't want to give cash, only
> product. i mean, if you have the luxury to choose, of course take the
> money, but to turn away product based on principle is risking event suicide.
> 
> - caps only cost $1!? $2 with printing? if you really do have a line on $1
> blank cycling caps, please let us all know, because in all my days of
> having custom cycling apparel made, i have never seen anything for much
> less than $10 per.
> 
> - i fully appreciate that an organizing committee wants cash and not to be
> in the business of selling merchandise, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
> when confronted with the opportunity to be given hundreds of free, custom
> made, designed by your bro cycling caps, to do with what you like, in
> exchange for basically nothing (cinelli is not demanding title sponsorship
> or checkpoint sponsorship or anything), WHY ON EARTH would you turn this
> away?
> 
> - this tax exemption thing you speak of is very interesting. if it is true,
> amazing! wish i knew about it 16 years ago... but somehow i don't believe
> that the irs is going to give any cmwc money back for the printing of event
> merchandise. i bet someone like bega would know more about this.
> 
> - i don't get it. if the cost of the event is $50k, you need to raise $50k,
> no? if you raise $150k you just made $100k. i admit that business meetings,
> accounting and promoting are not my speciality (nor is addition and
> subtraction), but i still don't follow your math.
> 
> - hating on the french... i'm giving safa a pass on this one. he was
> justifiably pissed at and offended by a french guy who said some lame shit,
> so he said some mean shit back. there was some truth to all of it... i
> don't know what other contemptful americans you are talking about or what
> stats you are referring to when you say most people love the french, but i
> think you are biased in this matter. in any case, it is best not to make
> generalizations.
> 
> - to say montreal has the best "french content" race shit in canada is not
> saying much. who is their competition? ottawa? again, just admit you have a
> french bias.
> 
> - french food: i tried the poutine. sorry, but that shit is NASTY.
> 
> - as far as leaving a financial trail and openness is concerned, i agree,
> it could definitely help, but i also know from personal experience, that
> keeping good track of the money for an event like this in a total
> nightmare. like you said, we're just fucking bike messengers, not
> accountants and promoters.
> 
> - as far as corruption, lying, cheating and embezzling, be careful about
> pointing fingers. those are some serious accusations and unless you have
> some real proof to back it up, you should probably just shut up. good for
> you that you made money. really. everybody appreciates the donations you
> made with your profits and trust me, all organizers hope to come out ahead
> too. but it usually doesn't work out that way. to say after the fact "i
> told you so" is a pretty big dick move. i organized twice and despite best
> intentions, lost money big-time both times. and that happens more often
> than not. not by design or intent or incompetence, but because the event
> isn't prioritized to make money. the organizers didn't take on the
> MONUMENTAL (and often thankless) task to get rich. no, they chose to make
> the sacrifice of their time, energy and if necessary their own money to do
> something GREAT. we should all just be thankful. and besides, if somebody
> thinks that hosting a cmwc is any way to skim some easy money, they are out
> of their minds. haha!
> 
> - and finally i would just suggest, that if you are going to post such
> biting critique of members of the messenger community, at least have the
> courtesy of taking credit for your comments with your real name, so all of
> us know exactly who we are typing with here.
> 
> thank you. have a nice day. see you in mexico very soon!
> 
> andy zalan
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 10:01 PM, listening quitely <
> listeningquitely@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
>> Hello All, I've tried to stay out of this....Here's me 2 bits, (but you
>> guys fighting is getting tiring)
>> 
>> 1)  Any sponsor wants the most for least. (as do all business, that is
>> businesses by nature) That in mind, they account their investment like
>> this- whats goes in (from sponsor) must pay out at ruffly investment times
>> 75% or better, (you do the math, you spent all them long days in
>> school-right) So A Mess Race Events is seen by them as a fad event, worth
>> only small investment, that compounded by event officials (believing
>> themselves Holier than thou) that are eager, have good intentions but ZERO
>> to Little:  Accountancy, Promotion and Big Businesses experience and with
>> disregard or lack of skills with Business Meetings and cold calls in
>> general.
>> Here's Another way to look at it this...
>> Hello All, I've tried to stay out of this....Here's me 2 bits, (but you
>> guys fighting is getting tiring)
>> 
>> 1)  Any sponsor wants the most for least. (as do all business, that is
>> businesses by nature) That in mind, they account their investment like
>> this- whats goes in (from sponsor) must pay out at ruffly investment times
>> 75% or better, (you do the math, you spent all them long days in
>> school-right) So A Mess Race Events is seen by them as a fad event, worth
>> only small investment, that compounded by event officials (believing
>> themselves Holier than thou) that are eager, have good intentions but ZERO
>> to Little:  Accountancy, Promotion and Big Businesses experience and with
>> disregard or lack of skills with Business Meetings and cold calls in
>> general.
>> Here's Another way to look at it this...
>> Cost of event 50,000$
>> You will need to bring in 150,000$ to pay all you bills, Don't Believe me
>> , try running an event.
>> ***So Your Event cost of all goods and services needs to be about 20% to
>> 30% of take in (income) or you will lose money. Don't Do Like Toronto and
>> Tokyo...they didn't listen to me...o-well...
>> Caps only cost about 1 dollar ca. to make with shipping (orders less than
>> 1000 units), add another dollar to have some volunteers screen print event
>> shit on them. O ya, Maybe their is some couriers reading this-YOU have
>> Friends and work contacts that manufacturer, design and print hats and
>> other gear... use your heads (so i don't have to start fucking swearing)
>> And if you don't know, almost all first world countries have a full tax
>> exemption (credit) for advertising , that means its free to produce free to
>> distribute, By definition it has no end user cost, its cost are factored
>> into daily business, and are a full right off, no cost to anyone...despite
>> what your lead to believe. Do  the following or fail....USE  a" Certified
>> Accountant"  in good standing or your fucked, not a courier clingon. (shit
>> that sticks)
>> ***Quick math*** I you give me 500 caps: I cant lease a venue or pay fees
>> to suppliers. Try running a business that only takes caps and refuses cash,
>> see what happens.
>> 
>> 
>> 2) The French contempt Thing, Please stop bitching! (seems to come from
>> the Americans mostly- just saying)
>> I and Most others love the french, So what if they don't show up on mass
>> for meetings, so what they don't get a race, so what ... when they show up
>> in force, they will be on the other side, and someone else will be bitched
>> at, that's stupid humans for ya.
>> **** NOTE **** Everyone knows The Quebeckers the Montrealers HAVE the Best
>> Race Shit happening anyway if your looking for french content. (bars open
>> till 3am and or 6am and later)  To the haters, Feel Free to avoid the
>> french , I will gladly keep the french girls to myself. NO PROB. Montreal
>> has a great group of folks, and some good racing.
>> 
>> O YA their food is better than yours TOO! (say again THEIR FRENCH FOOD is
>> better)
>> 
>> 3) Independents is STILL KEY to all things... (lose that , and your
>> fucked) your work , your play, your race, things will get more fucked the
>> more you add stupid to it.
>> If you need a comity to plan shit, you'll have PROBLEMS, do it
>> yourselves. (ever try dating 10 people at once, its like that)
>> ***Take Individual Ownership of your shit (event-life-work)
>> You will end with a wining event or your fault, no fucking blame
>> elsewhere.
>> If your community wants to enjoy the event with you: they will, be real
>> though, most people want to emulate a courier but they don't want all the
>> shit that goes with it, they want to look in the window but still want to
>> go home to their bed at night with clean hands (and no bed bugs)
>> SO events are geared to us with invites and acceptance of them, keep that
>> in mind before you bitch about sponsors, there is a place in courier racing
>> for sponsors.
>> 
>> 
>> History proves again and again that humans don't and cant work shit out
>> together, (or they get tired of the shit and move on) so do your shit your
>> way, if the world wants and likes it: they will come....if not, ya know for
>> next time...don't fuck up.
>> As far as the selling of the "CMWC" name if that's true, It is another of
>> the most DOUCHE (that would be the far reaches of your private parts
>> getting cleaned with a 2500psi power washer) moves yet by the board and
>> it's incompetent members, it's obviously time for new faces there or
>> complete dissolution, well since the name is sold there is nothing left of
>> it anyway, so it is fare Territory to rebuild from scratch and call it what
>> ever you like..(may i suggest renaming it "Pencil Dick only Tack Douches"
>> Or "Cant figure how to fix my bike so I'll get one with ZERO abilities")
>> You new people can feel completely comfortable with dissociating all
>> cyclist and spectators without thought or regret or any insight to the
>> past... also it will have proven my points above.  Its no Big waste of
>> twenty five years, it was crap built on the fucking NORBA and UCI garbage
>> anyway. race bodies that have ZERO to DO with couriers and city cores. Not
>> to mention all the real work that went into it. Oorah
>> 
>> 4) If comity and community is running the show ...SHOW us the money trail,
>> OPEN ALL Financial records for all events. I know that 1000 eyes on a
>> budget can and will find flaws , cheats, outright theft of funding if that
>> exists?  O that's right Toronto just magically lost all their documents
>> related to the Race and funding of the event...no funny business there EH?
>> ever here of a database, you should all be familiar, you all use one
>> everyday at work.
>> As far as Money from events or donations ...it is open to interpretation
>> by governance body what the final amount should and or will be donated with
>> explicit regard to amount, as far a law goes it is only 2% by law in USA,
>> and only between 2% to 4% in Canada enforceable by very limited laws. So if
>> you want to be a thief that's the clearest way to get involved. Legalized
>> thievery. So if an individual wants to pay out 2% and pay the rest to his
>> or her self and or buddies that is an accepted practice of all business
>> including business interactions with all levels of government. GET USED TO
>> IT (stop bitching) or get your self in government and make the changes. Or
>> things will stays the same...as they are now.
>> ****  YOUR SHEEP OR YOU DEFINE YOUR ENVIRONMENT, choose.
>> 
>> 
>> I have said these things before, others have said same, year after year
>> same fight.
>> 
>> Get your gear made at home, local, for that matter build copamies to
>> service the couriers...
>>  On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:55:52 PM, listening quitely <
>> listeningquitely@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>    On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:46:02 PM, listening quitely <
>> listeningquitely@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello All, I've tried to stay out of this....Here's me 2 bits, (but you
>> guys fighting is getting tiring)
>> 
>> 1)  Any sponsor wants the most for least. (as do all business, that is
>> businesses by nature) That in mind, they account their investment like
>> this- whats goes in (from sponsor) must pay out at ruffly investment times
>> 75% or better, (you do the math, you spent all them long days in
>> school-right) So A Mess Race Events is seen by them as a fad event, worth
>> only small investment, that compounded by event officials (believing
>> themselves Holier than thou) that are eager, have good intentions but ZERO
>> to Little:  Accountancy, Promotion and Big Businesses experience and with
>> disregard or lack of skills with Business Meetings and cold calls in
>> general.
>> Here's Another way to look at it this...
>> Cost of event 50,000$
>> You will need to bring in 150,000$ to pay all you bills, Don't Believe me
>> , try running an event.
>> ***So Your Event cost of all goods and services needs to be about 20% to
>> 30% of take in (income) or you will lose money. Don't Do Like Toronto and
>> Tokyo...they didn't listen to me...o-well...
>> Caps only cost about 1 dollar ca. to make with shipping (orders less than
>> 1000 units), add another dollar to have some volunteers screen print event
>> shit on them. O ya, Maybe their is some couriers reading this-YOU have
>> Friends and work contacts that manufacturer, design and print hats and
>> other gear... use your heads (so i don't have to start fucking swearing)
>> And if you don't know, almost all first world countries have a full tax
>> exemption (credit) for advertising , that means its free to produce free to
>> distribute, By definition it has no end user cost, its cost are factored
>> into daily business, and are a full right off, no cost to anyone...despite
>> what your lead to believe.
>> Do  the following or fail....USE  a" Certified Accountant"  in good
>> standing or your fucked, not a courier clingon. (shit that sticks)
>> ***Quick math*** You give me 500 caps: I cant lease a venue or pay fees
>> to suppliers.
>> Try running a business that only takes caps and refuses cash, see what
>> happens.
>> I will say again caps are paid fully throughout the supply chain and have
>> no financials cost to: owner, producer, manufacturer, shipper, dealer. they
>> get a full tax reimbursement for these items. So CAPS equal nothing. for
>> those not understanding CAPS have ZERO value and add Zero value to your
>> event, Instead the sponsor should be allowed after cash payment-fee's, to
>> sell their wears and gear, simple. Don't be a gimp, don't just take because
>> you think its free. That ends in diluting everyone involved. There is an
>> old saying "Sucker Born Every Minute"
>> 
>> 2) The French contempt Thing, Please stop bitching! (seems to come from
>> the Americans mostly- just saying)
>> I and Most others love the french, So what if they don't show up on mass
>> for meetings, so what they don't get a race, so what ... when they show up
>> in force, they will be on the other side, and someone else will be bitched
>> at, that's stupid humans for ya.
>> **** NOTE **** Everyone knows The Quebeckers the Montrealers HAVE the Best
>> Race Shit happening anyway if your looking for french content. (bars open
>> till 3am and or 6am and later and REAL bike lanes like in EUROPA)  To the
>> haters, Feel Free to avoid the french , I will gladly keep the french girls
>> to myself. NO PROB.
>> Montreal has a great group of folks, and some good racing.
>> O YA their food is better than yours TOO! (say again THEIR FRENCH FOOD is
>> better)
>> 
>> 3) Independents is STILL KEY to all things... (lose that , and your
>> fucked) your work , your play, your race, things will get more fucked the
>> more you add stupid to it.
>> If you need a comity to plan shit, you'll have PROBLEMS, do it
>> yourselves. (ever try dating 10 people at once, its like that)
>> ***Take Individual Ownership of your shit (event-life-work)
>> You will end with a wining event or your fault, no fucking blame
>> elsewhere.
>> If your community wants to enjoy the event with you: they will, be real
>> though, most people want to emulate a courier but they don't want all the
>> shit that goes with it, they want to look in the window but still want to
>> go home to their bed at night with clean hands (and no bed bugs)
>> SO events are geared to us with invites and acceptance of them, keep that
>> in mind before you bitch about "real sponsors", there is a place in courier
>> racing for sponsors. (even cheap ass ones)
>> 
>> History proves again and again that humans don't and cant work shit out
>> together, (or they get tired of the shit and move on) so do your shit your
>> way, if the world wants and likes it: they will come....if not, ya know for
>> next time...don't fuck up.
>> As far as the selling of the "CMWC" name if that's true, It is another of
>> the most DOUCHE (that would be the far reaches of your private parts
>> getting cleaned with a 2500psi power washer) moves yet by the board and
>> it's incompetent members, it's obviously time for new faces there or
>> complete dissolution, well since the name is sold there is nothing left of
>> it anyway, so it is fare Territory to rebuild from scratch and call it what
>> ever you like..(may i suggest renaming it "Pencil Dick only Tack Douches"
>> Or "Cant figure how to fix my bike so I'll get one with ZERO abilities"
>> LMAO-sorry, you know who you are) Hey fixxie where you gonna be after one
>> of my 1200kms rides over three days. See ya clinging to a mud patty at the
>> side of the road.
>> You new people can feel completely comfortable with dissociating all
>> cyclist, sponsors and spectators  without thought or regret or any insight
>> to the past... also it will have proven my points above.  Its no Big waste
>> of twenty five years, it was crap built on the fucking NORBA and UCI
>> garbage anyway. race bodies that have ZERO to DO with couriers and city
>> cores. Not to mention all the real work that went into it. *Oorah*
>> 
>> 4) If comity and community is running the show ...SHOW us the money trail,
>> OPEN ALL Financial records for all events. I know that 1000 eyes on a
>> budget can and will find flaws, ways to save, cheats and outright theft of
>> funding if that exists?  O that's right Toronto just magically lost all
>> their documents related to the Race and funding of the event...no funny
>> business there EH? ever here of a database, you should all be familiar, you
>> all use one everyday at work.
>> As far as Money from events or donations ...it is open to interpretation
>> by governance body what the final amount should and or will be donated with
>> explicit regard to amount, as far a law goes it is only 2% by law in USA,
>> and only between 2% to 4% in Canada enforceable by very limited laws. So if
>> you want to be a thief that's the clearest way to get involved in Legalized
>> thievery. So if an individual wants to pay out 2% and pay the rest (98%) to
>> his or her self and or buddies that is an accepted practice of all business
>> including business interactions with all levels of government. GET USED TO
>> IT (stop bitching) or get your self in government and make the changes. Or
>> things will stays the same...as they are now.
>> ****  YOU ARE SHEEP OR YOU DEFINE YOUR ENVIRONMENT,
>> choose.
>> 
>> I have said these things before, others have said same, year after year
>> same fight.
>> 
>> Get your gear made at home, local, for that matter build companies to
>> service the couriers and communities.
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