Re: [messengers] super mess market / mall mess life / migros mess life / hyper discount mess life / hard discount soon

Date: 15 May 2014 18:27:51 -0000
From: "kai edel" <kek76@xxxxxx>


   Can't wait to see andy and jesse fighting these out in mexico over a
   tequila bottle with worms innit!
   --
   Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
   gesendet.

   Jesse Lee Mcgarr <coredeliveries@xxxxxxxxx> schrieb:

     And poutine isn't French ITS QUEBECIOS
     Sent from my iPhone
     > On May 15, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Andy Zalan <zalandy@xxxxxxxxx>
     wrote:
     >
     > ok, i'll bite.
     >
     > - first and foremost, i think once a city wins the right to host a
     > championship, it is entirely up to them how to handle their books,
     money
     > and sponsorships. it's nice that people have opinions - messengers
     tend to
     > have strong ones - but this becomes a case of if you don't like
     how it is
     > done, do it yourself.
     >
     > - your point about sponsors wanting the most for least is
     generally correct
     > and shouldn't be surprising to anybody. although i could argue
     that most
     > messenger events are sponsored primarily by small, grassroots
     companies
     > with direct ties to the mess scene, just in it for the love and
     not the
     > money. the cmwc is in reality a quite small, niche event that big
     money
     > companies are NOT climbing over each other to throw money at. it
     may be the
     > most important event on the messenger calendar but it probably
     draws less
     > attention than your local farmer's market. so this idea that we
     should hold
     > out for "real" money is wishful thinking. yes, in the past there
     have been
     > sponsors who forked over significant amounts of actual cash, but
     this is
     > very much the exception. my personal experience has been that even
     big
     > companies like red bull and cannondale don't want to give cash,
     only
     > product. i mean, if you have the luxury to choose, of course take
     the
     > money, but to turn away product based on principle is risking
     event suicide.
     >
     > - caps only cost $1!? $2 with printing? if you really do have a
     line on $1
     > blank cycling caps, please let us all know, because in all my days
     of
     > having custom cycling apparel made, i have never seen anything for
     much
     > less than $10 per.
     >
     > - i fully appreciate that an organizing committee wants cash and
     not to be
     > in the business of selling merchandise, but you gotta do what you
     gotta do.
     > when confronted with the opportunity to be given hundreds of free,
     custom
     > made, designed by your bro cycling caps, to do with what you like,
     in
     > exchange for basically nothing (cinelli is not demanding title
     sponsorship
     > or checkpoint sponsorship or anything), WHY ON EARTH would you
     turn this
     > away?
     >
     > - this tax exemption thing you speak of is very interesting. if it
     is true,
     > amazing! wish i knew about it 16 years ago... but somehow i don't
     believe
     > that the irs is going to give any cmwc money back for the printing
     of event
     > merchandise. i bet someone like bega would know more about this.
     >
     > - i don't get it. if the cost of the event is $50k, you need to
     raise $50k,
     > no? if you raise $150k you just made $100k. i admit that business
     meetings,
     > accounting and promoting are not my speciality (nor is addition
     and
     > subtraction), but i still don't follow your math.
     >
     > - hating on the french... i'm giving safa a pass on this one. he
     was
     > justifiably pissed at and offended by a french guy who said some
     lame shit,
     > so he said some mean shit back. there was some truth to all of
     it... i
     > don't know what other contemptful americans you are talking about
     or what
     > stats you are referring to when you say most people love the
     french, but i
     > think you are biased in this matter. in any case, it is best not
     to make
     > generalizations.
     >
     > - to say montreal has the best "french content" race shit in
     canada is not
     > saying much. who is their competition? ottawa? again, just admit
     you have a
     > french bias.
     >
     > - french food: i tried the poutine. sorry, but that shit is NASTY.
     >
     > - as far as leaving a financial trail and openness is concerned, i
     agree,
     > it could definitely help, but i also know from personal
     experience, that
     > keeping good track of the money for an event like this in a total
     > nightmare. like you said, we're just fucking bike messengers, not
     > accountants and promoters.
     >
     > - as far as corruption, lying, cheating and embezzling, be careful
     about
     > pointing fingers. those are some serious accusations and unless
     you have
     > some real proof to back it up, you should probably just shut up.
     good for
     > you that you made money. really. everybody appreciates the
     donations you
     > made with your profits and trust me, all organizers hope to come
     out ahead
     > too. but it usually doesn't work out that way. to say after the
     fact "i
     > told you so" is a pretty big dick move. i organized twice and
     despite best
     > intentions, lost money big-time both times. and that happens more
     often
     > than not. not by design or intent or incompetence, but because the
     event
     > isn't prioritized to make money. the organizers didn't take on the
     > MONUMENTAL (and often thankless) task to get rich. no, they chose
     to make
     > the sacrifice of their time, energy and if necessary their own
     money to do
     > something GREAT. we should all just be thankful. and besides, if
     somebody
     > thinks that hosting a cmwc is any way to skim some easy money,
     they are out
     > of their minds. haha!
     >
     > - and finally i would just suggest, that if you are going to post
     such
     > biting critique of members of the messenger community, at least
     have the
     > courtesy of taking credit for your comments with your real name,
     so all of
     > us know exactly who we are typing with here.
     >
     > thank you. have a nice day. see you in mexico very soon!
     >
     > andy zalan
     >
     >
     >
     > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 10:01 PM, listening quitely <
     > listeningquitely@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
     >
     >> Hello All, I've tried to stay out of this....Here's me 2 bits,
     (but you
     >> guys fighting is getting tiring)
     >>
     >> 1) Any sponsor wants the most for least. (as do all business,
     that is
     >> businesses by nature) That in mind, they account their investment
     like
     >> this- whats goes in (from sponsor) must pay out at ruffly
     investment times
     >> 75% or better, (you do the math, you spent all them long days in
     >> school-right) So A Mess Race Events is seen by them as a fad
     event, worth
     >> only small investment, that compounded by event officials
     (believing
     >> themselves Holier than thou) that are eager, have good intentions
     but ZERO
     >> to Little: Accountancy, Promotion and Big Businesses experience
     and with
     >> disregard or lack of skills with Business Meetings and cold calls
     in
     >> general.
     >> Here's Another way to look at it this...
     >> Hello All, I've tried to stay out of this....Here's me 2 bits,
     (but you
     >> guys fighting is getting tiring)
     >>
     >> 1) Any sponsor wants the most for least. (as do all business,
     that is
     >> businesses by nature) That in mind, they account their investment
     like
     >> this- whats goes in (from sponsor) must pay out at ruffly
     investment times
     >> 75% or better, (you do the math, you spent all them long days in
     >> school-right) So A Mess Race Events is seen by them as a fad
     event, worth
     >> only small investment, that compounded by event officials
     (believing
     >> themselves Holier than thou) that are eager, have good intentions
     but ZERO
     >> to Little: Accountancy, Promotion and Big Businesses experience
     and with
     >> disregard or lack of skills with Business Meetings and cold calls
     in
     >> general.
     >> Here's Another way to look at it this...
     >> Cost of event 50,000$
     >> You will need to bring in 150,000$ to pay all you bills, Don't
     Believe me
     >> , try running an event.
     >> ***So Your Event cost of all goods and services needs to be about
     20% to
     >> 30% of take in (income) or you will lose money. Don't Do Like
     Toronto and
     >> Tokyo...they didn't listen to me...o-well...
     >> Caps only cost about 1 dollar ca. to make with shipping (orders
     less than
     >> 1000 units), add another dollar to have some volunteers screen
     print event
     >> shit on them. O ya, Maybe their is some couriers reading this-YOU
     have
     >> Friends and work contacts that manufacturer, design and print
     hats and
     >> other gear... use your heads (so i don't have to start fucking
     swearing)
     >> And if you don't know, almost all first world countries have a
     full tax
     >> exemption (credit) for advertising , that means its free to
     produce free to
     >> distribute, By definition it has no end user cost, its cost are
     factored
     >> into daily business, and are a full right off, no cost to
     anyone...despite
     >> what your lead to believe. Do the following or fail....USE a"
     Certified
     >> Accountant" in good standing or your fucked, not a courier
     clingon. (shit
     >> that sticks)
     >> ***Quick math*** I you give me 500 caps: I cant lease a venue or
     pay fees
     >> to suppliers. Try running a business that only takes caps and
     refuses cash,
     >> see what happens.
     >>
     >>
     >> 2) The French contempt Thing, Please stop bitching! (seems to
     come from
     >> the Americans mostly- just saying)
     >> I and Most others love the french, So what if they don't show up
     on mass
     >> for meetings, so what they don't get a race, so what ... when
     they show up
     >> in force, they will be on the other side, and someone else will
     be bitched
     >> at, that's stupid humans for ya.
     >> **** NOTE **** Everyone knows The Quebeckers the Montrealers HAVE
     the Best
     >> Race Shit happening anyway if your looking for french content.
     (bars open
     >> till 3am and or 6am and later) To the haters, Feel Free to avoid
     the
     >> french , I will gladly keep the french girls to myself. NO PROB.
     Montreal
     >> has a great group of folks, and some good racing.
     >>
     >> O YA their food is better than yours TOO! (say again THEIR FRENCH
     FOOD is
     >> better)
     >>
     >> 3) Independents is STILL KEY to all things... (lose that , and
     your
     >> fucked) your work , your play, your race, things will get more
     fucked the
     >> more you add stupid to it.
     >> If you need a comity to plan shit, you'll have PROBLEMS, do it
     >> yourselves. (ever try dating 10 people at once, its like that)
     >> ***Take Individual Ownership of your shit (event-life-work)
     >> You will end with a wining event or your fault, no fucking blame
     >> elsewhere.
     >> If your community wants to enjoy the event with you: they will,
     be real
     >> though, most people want to emulate a courier but they don't want
     all the
     >> shit that goes with it, they want to look in the window but still
     want to
     >> go home to their bed at night with clean hands (and no bed bugs)
     >> SO events are geared to us with invites and acceptance of them,
     keep that
     >> in mind before you bitch about sponsors, there is a place in
     courier racing
     >> for sponsors.
     >>
     >>
     >> History proves again and again that humans don't and cant work
     shit out
     >> together, (or they get tired of the shit and move on) so do your
     shit your
     >> way, if the world wants and likes it: they will come....if not,
     ya know for
     >> next time...don't fuck up.
     >> As far as the selling of the "CMWC" name if that's true, It is
     another of
     >> the most DOUCHE (that would be the far reaches of your private
     parts
     >> getting cleaned with a 2500psi power washer) moves yet by the
     board and
     >> it's incompetent members, it's obviously time for new faces there
     or
     >> complete dissolution, well since the name is sold there is
     nothing left of
     >> it anyway, so it is fare Territory to rebuild from scratch and
     call it what
     >> ever you like..(may i suggest renaming it "Pencil Dick only Tack
     Douches"
     >> Or "Cant figure how to fix my bike so I'll get one with ZERO
     abilities")
     >> You new people can feel completely comfortable with dissociating
     all
     >> cyclist and spectators without thought or regret or any insight
     to the
     >> past... also it will have proven my points above. Its no Big
     waste of
     >> twenty five years, it was crap built on the fucking NORBA and UCI
     garbage
     >> anyway. race bodies that have ZERO to DO with couriers and city
     cores. Not
     >> to mention all the real work that went into it. Oorah
     >>
     >> 4) If comity and community is running the show ...SHOW us the
     money trail,
     >> OPEN ALL Financial records for all events. I know that 1000 eyes
     on a
     >> budget can and will find flaws , cheats, outright theft of
     funding if that
     >> exists? O that's right Toronto just magically lost all their
     documents
     >> related to the Race and funding of the event...no funny business
     there EH?
     >> ever here of a database, you should all be familiar, you all use
     one
     >> everyday at work.
     >> As far as Money from events or donations ...it is open to
     interpretation
     >> by governance body what the final amount should and or will be
     donated with
     >> explicit regard to amount, as far a law goes it is only 2% by law
     in USA,
     >> and only between 2% to 4% in Canada enforceable by very limited
     laws. So if
     >> you want to be a thief that's the clearest way to get involved.
     Legalized
     >> thievery. So if an individual wants to pay out 2% and pay the
     rest to his
     >> or her self and or buddies that is an accepted practice of all
     business
     >> including business interactions with all levels of government.
     GET USED TO
     >> IT (stop bitching) or get your self in government and make the
     changes. Or
     >> things will stays the same...as they are now.
     >> **** YOUR SHEEP OR YOU DEFINE YOUR ENVIRONMENT, choose.
     >>
     >>
     >> I have said these things before, others have said same, year
     after year
     >> same fight.
     >>
     >> Get your gear made at home, local, for that matter build copamies
     to
     >> service the couriers...
     >> On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:55:52 PM, listening quitely <
     >> listeningquitely@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
     >> On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:46:02 PM, listening quitely <
     >> listeningquitely@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
     >>
     >> Hello All, I've tried to stay out of this....Here's me 2 bits,
     (but you
     >> guys fighting is getting tiring)
     >>
     >> 1) Any sponsor wants the most for least. (as do all business,
     that is
     >> businesses by nature) That in mind, they account their investment
     like
     >> this- whats goes in (from sponsor) must pay out at ruffly
     investment times
     >> 75% or better, (you do the math, you spent all them long days in
     >> school-right) So A Mess Race Events is seen by them as a fad
     event, worth
     >> only small investment, that compounded by event officials
     (believing
     >> themselves Holier than thou) that are eager, have good intentions
     but ZERO
     >> to Little: Accountancy, Promotion and Big Businesses experience
     and with
     >> disregard or lack of skills with Business Meetings and cold calls
     in
     >> general.
     >> Here's Another way to look at it this...
     >> Cost of event 50,000$
     >> You will need to bring in 150,000$ to pay all you bills, Don't
     Believe me
     >> , try running an event.
     >> ***So Your Event cost of all goods and services needs to be about
     20% to
     >> 30% of take in (income) or you will lose money. Don't Do Like
     Toronto and
     >> Tokyo...they didn't listen to me...o-well...
     >> Caps only cost about 1 dollar ca. to make with shipping (orders
     less than
     >> 1000 units), add another dollar to have some volunteers screen
     print event
     >> shit on them. O ya, Maybe their is some couriers reading this-YOU
     have
     >> Friends and work contacts that manufacturer, design and print
     hats and
     >> other gear... use your heads (so i don't have to start fucking
     swearing)
     >> And if you don't know, almost all first world countries have a
     full tax
     >> exemption (credit) for advertising , that means its free to
     produce free to
     >> distribute, By definition it has no end user cost, its cost are
     factored
     >> into daily business, and are a full right off, no cost to
     anyone...despite
     >> what your lead to believe.
     >> Do the following or fail....USE a" Certified Accountant" in good
     >> standing or your fucked, not a courier clingon. (shit that
     sticks)
     >> ***Quick math*** You give me 500 caps: I cant lease a venue or
     pay fees
     >> to suppliers.
     >> Try running a business that only takes caps and refuses cash, see
     what
     >> happens.
     >> I will say again caps are paid fully throughout the supply chain
     and have
     >> no financials cost to: owner, producer, manufacturer, shipper,
     dealer. they
     >> get a full tax reimbursement for these items. So CAPS equal
     nothing. for
     >> those not understanding CAPS have ZERO value and add Zero value
     to your
     >> event, Instead the sponsor should be allowed after cash
     payment-fee's, to
     >> sell their wears and gear, simple. Don't be a gimp, don't just
     take because
     >> you think its free. That ends in diluting everyone involved.
     There is an
     >> old saying "Sucker Born Every Minute"
     >>
     >> 2) The French contempt Thing, Please stop bitching! (seems to
     come from
     >> the Americans mostly- just saying)
     >> I and Most others love the french, So what if they don't show up
     on mass
     >> for meetings, so what they don't get a race, so what ... when
     they show up
     >> in force, they will be on the other side, and someone else will
     be bitched
     >> at, that's stupid humans for ya.
     >> **** NOTE **** Everyone knows The Quebeckers the Montrealers HAVE
     the Best
     >> Race Shit happening anyway if your looking for french content.
     (bars open
     >> till 3am and or 6am and later and REAL bike lanes like in EUROPA)
     To the
     >> haters, Feel Free to avoid the french , I will gladly keep the
     french girls
     >> to myself. NO PROB.
     >> Montreal has a great group of folks, and some good racing.
     >> O YA their food is better than yours TOO! (say again THEIR FRENCH
     FOOD is
     >> better)
     >>
     >> 3) Independents is STILL KEY to all things... (lose that , and
     your
     >> fucked) your work , your play, your race, things will get more
     fucked the
     >> more you add stupid to it.
     >> If you need a comity to plan shit, you'll have PROBLEMS, do it
     >> yourselves. (ever try dating 10 people at once, its like that)
     >> ***Take Individual Ownership of your shit (event-life-work)
     >> You will end with a wining event or your fault, no fucking blame
     >> elsewhere.
     >> If your community wants to enjoy the event with you: they will,
     be real
     >> though, most people want to emulate a courier but they don't want
     all the
     >> shit that goes with it, they want to look in the window but still
     want to
     >> go home to their bed at night with clean hands (and no bed bugs)
     >> SO events are geared to us with invites and acceptance of them,
     keep that
     >> in mind before you bitch about "real sponsors", there is a place
     in courier
     >> racing for sponsors. (even cheap ass ones)
     >>
     >> History proves again and again that humans don't and cant work
     shit out
     >> together, (or they get tired of the shit and move on) so do your
     shit your
     >> way, if the world wants and likes it: they will come....if not,
     ya know for
     >> next time...don't fuck up.
     >> As far as the selling of the "CMWC" name if that's true, It is
     another of
     >> the most DOUCHE (that would be the far reaches of your private
     parts
     >> getting cleaned with a 2500psi power washer) moves yet by the
     board and
     >> it's incompetent members, it's obviously time for new faces there
     or
     >> complete dissolution, well since the name is sold there is
     nothing left of
     >> it anyway, so it is fare Territory to rebuild from scratch and
     call it what
     >> ever you like..(may i suggest renaming it "Pencil Dick only Tack
     Douches"
     >> Or "Cant figure how to fix my bike so I'll get one with ZERO
     abilities"
     >> LMAO-sorry, you know who you are) Hey fixxie where you gonna be
     after one
     >> of my 1200kms rides over three days. See ya clinging to a mud
     patty at the
     >> side of the road.
     >> You new people can feel completely comfortable with dissociating
     all
     >> cyclist, sponsors and spectators without thought or regret or any
     insight
     >> to the past... also it will have proven my points above. Its no
     Big waste
     >> of twenty five years, it was crap built on the fucking NORBA and
     UCI
     >> garbage anyway. race bodies that have ZERO to DO with couriers
     and city
     >> cores. Not to mention all the real work that went into it.
     *Oorah*
     >>
     >> 4) If comity and community is running the show ...SHOW us the
     money trail,
     >> OPEN ALL Financial records for all events. I know that 1000 eyes
     on a
     >> budget can and will find flaws, ways to save, cheats and outright
     theft of
     >> funding if that exists? O that's right Toronto just magically
     lost all
     >> their documents related to the Race and funding of the event...no
     funny
     >> business there EH? ever here of a database, you should all be
     familiar, you
     >> all use one everyday at work.
     >> As far as Money from events or donations ...it is open to
     interpretation
     >> by governance body what the final amount should and or will be
     donated with
     >> explicit regard to amount, as far a law goes it is only 2% by law
     in USA,
     >> and only between 2% to 4% in Canada enforceable by very limited
     laws. So if
     >> you want to be a thief that's the clearest way to get involved in
     Legalized
     >> thievery. So if an individual wants to pay out 2% and pay the
     rest (98%) to
     >> his or her self and or buddies that is an accepted practice of
     all business
     >> including business interactions with all levels of government.
     GET USED TO
     >> IT (stop bitching) or get your self in government and make the
     changes. Or
     >> things will stays the same...as they are now.
     >> **** YOU ARE SHEEP OR YOU DEFINE YOUR ENVIRONMENT,
     >> choose.
     >>
     >> I have said these things before, others have said same, year
     after year
     >> same fight.
     >>
     >> Get your gear made at home, local, for that matter build
     companies to
     >> service the couriers and communities.
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